Sex, Violence, Profanity Are Fine...But Don't You Dare Pretend To Be Another Race

Comments

I hope you'll forgive my usual frankness, but the problem is all yours. You're too timid. You even felt the need to prepare people for your frankness?

But now when I say "you," I mean younger people, and it relates, I think, to your being brought up in a hideously phony politically correct environment.

What I mean by that is twofold:

1) We can see from the Dems campaigns that true feelings come out despite the PC constraints. You can't legislate them away, and you can't suppress them no matter how punitive you get.

2) Older people don't feel the same constraints. I constantly talk about race, ethnicity, etc., and I rarely feel the need to explain because I couldn't care less how it's received. The only thing that matters is that I made my point or my (attempted) joke clearly. How you receive it is out of my control. What are you gonna do anyway, get me thrown off Vox? Why I'd be devastated.

When it comes to talking about "sensitive" matters, I'm really very liberal - if it feels good, do it.

And older people seem to have even less reticence if Senator Byrd is any indication!?!

I'll leave you with a joke I wrote which I haven't yet posted to my comedy blog on another venue, so you get to decide if it's funny

Did you hear Michelle Obama almost filed for divorce when she heard Barack say he quit smoking by "chewing Nicorette." Yeah, you just knew those black names would eventually cause big trouble for somebody, right?

Scio - I was a hair dresser for about 10ish years and I only cut one black mans hair. At the time he came in, I was afraid to cut his hair because I wasn't sure how to do it. But he was in the National Guard and he was leaving out early the following morning. I was the only one at the Salon and actually I was closing out.

I told him I didn't know how and I might mess it up. He told me it's not a problem that if I did it would grow back. So I washed his hair (first mistake) and then preceded to cut his hair. As I was about half way through the hair cut, I started noticing that his hair was shrinking up big time. I spun him around and had him look in the mirror. He seen exactly what I was seeing, but he told me it wasn't a problem.

All went fine. That night I talked with him about black man hair, black man National Guard and he talked about white people on this and that but never anything bad.

That night was wonderful - there was no dancing around the obvious, no PC crap.

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In general I cannot be that free and open with black people because many get offended. Then they proceed to tell me "white people, did this and that" trying to be all in my face and make me feel bad because my skin is white. To which I have to tell them I'm Indian and everything changes! It's odd and I don't like it.

I want to know why all the stuff matters when I'm just considered the white person, but then not any problems when I'm known as Indian.

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I now also have to say one of my very dearest friends is a black woman. There has never been any of the racist PC trash between us and has never even come up between us. But I will also tell you, she made her adult daughter leave her (dear friends) home one day, because her daughter walked in and was furious that her mom had 'that white women' in her home. Which we've been in each others homes hundreds of times.

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I also think the media plays up and adds racial tensions. I think you're correct - It will be a big deal, it will be mentioned by media, but hopefully media only and not the public.

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Remember Ted Danson with Whopie Goldberg in black face at some celebrity event?

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Boy, you're just making me sick everywhere today!

Remember Eddie Murphy playing a Jew in Coming To America? Remember the outrage it generated?

Yes, I forgot about the Eddie Murphy movie. I remember Eddie Murphy on SNL portraying a thief as "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood."

I agree Ted. Somewhere along the line, probably in the course of my public schooling, I was conditioned. Not joking, I really think that.
I envy the older generation for not having to question themselves all the time for phony nonsense.
I love your joke! ROFLOL :-)

Thanks, Zak, now I can post it in good conscience.

Scio,

Literally seconds before I returned here, I was saying to my wife, "Can you imagine... I'd have lost my mind if I grew up in a politically correct public school.?" She says, "Oh my GOD!" .

Here's what I think has happened over time...

Blacks started to be fully integrated in my era so everything became "normal" for everyone. I mean, they still had their blackness, but that was merely a distinguishing factor from my "whiteness." Then the government and do-gooder groups started to accord blacks sympathy and privilege. Full integration wasn't enough. They needed a boost, and naturally then, one starts to feel entitled and to seek more.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel blacks sought favoritism at first, at least not your average black, but requests were granted and that led to demands -which were also met, and at some point, blacks were being treated differently - both paternalistically by government and then companies, and in individual day to day encounters.

Suddenly, whites were afraid of offending blacks, and when you think about it, it's preposterous on its face because when you say something to a black person,that's "chancy," you're really worried that other whites will think ill of you..

The worst part is, it's not going to change until people take back their right to freedom of expression, and there could be some big penalties to pay for those who initially try. Or everything could simply equalize over time, but I doubt it.

In my opinion, as long as whites are afraid of offending, blacks will be more than happy to take offense and demand "satisfaction."

That's why I was so bothered by Imus going to Al Sharpton to find "forgiveness," and by his droning on that he'd done a horrible thing in calling the Rutgers' girls "nappy-headed hos."

Imus did do the wrong thing - and the proper way to deal with it was to say he'd made a mistake, he regretted it, it won't happen again, now get over it.

Imus was wrong because he had no call to insult those girl athletes. It was rude and he owed them an apology just as if he had insulted my mother- there wasn't a reason to do so. Now he should have apologized, but I don’t think that he should be fired. I used to listen to him on the radio here in Tucson on KTUC. My take on Imus is that he is a loose cannon and his only reason for being is to stroke his ego and sell T-Shirts for his brother. What we must know about Don Imus is that he is a good liberal [sic] and it's only natural that he kowtows to the biggest self-promoting racist pig on the planet Al Sharpton. They should get married once it's legal in New York.

So if I understand you right, you have a black mother?

Anyway, it can't be much of an insult if every reporter on the planet felt perfectly at ease repeating it. But OK, slip a "he apologizes" in between my "he regretted it," and "now get over it."

My problem is that Imus' only redeeming value was insulting people. Now that he's returned, he only insults people whom it's safe to insult. Thus he has no more reason to exist.

Btw, consistent with what I've said above, one of the team members subsequently tried to sue Imus, saying she was irreparably damaged by his comment, thus proving that he was right about at least one of them.

I never thought that Imus ever said anything interesting or important. Ted you or any chatterbox on this blog should get his spot. My mother was English dipshit.

Well, do I detect a bias there? Because I used to watch Imus everyday, and while I did it mostly to see what Bernard would say, Imus was, quite simply, the best political interviewer around, and his speech at that Correspondents Dinner was very interesting. And occasionally, he would launch into a tirade about someone or something that could be both hilarious and devastating.

But he did become more and more liberal (though McCain has always been his guy) and thus more and more annoying, and now, he's been rendered almost impotent. I never listen now

I just thought that he was a clichéd liberal.

Hey, how about Peter Sellers as the Indian actor in The Party?
I think that I missed that one- but "Being There" was/ is my all time favorite.

Hey, how about Peter Sellers as the Indian actor in The Party?

Don't forget (Sir) Alec Guinness as a japanese, an indian, and an arab.

John

Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s as a Japanese man.

I'll see you with a Newman and a Laughlin as pre-Americans in Hombre and Billy Jack respectively, and Rosie O'Donnell playing a woman in Sleepless in Seattle, and raise you all the white guys who've played Charlie Chan.

I might have named Marlon Brando in Teahouse, but I felt that was clearly parody.

Meanwhile, Scio, this blog entry by Julia Gorin today caught my attention because she coins the term, "starved for offense, and she uses it in a much scarier context.

As always, love your post, Scio. Regarding the article, I was amazed by the photographs! I would never have guessed that was Robert Downey Jr.; incredible make-up! But that's just a side-bar.
I'm posting a comment to say, I'm sick of "white guilt"! What is the problem that white Americans feel the need to apologize for being white? They apologize before there is even a problem! Downey felt the need to explain himself before the movie is even made..."If you don't do it right, we're going to hell." Why? Because he has on make up that makes him look different than he is in reality? Isn't that what Hollywood does? It's "white guilt" that made him feel the need to justify himself.
It is permeating our society, from the humorous StuffWhitePeopleLike: Apologies to the serious Shelby Steele On White Guilt
But it is a detriment to our society. It is the catalyst for things like Affirmative Action and welfare, which are burdens on both black and white races.
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I love the post, Scio. As a follow up, to Ted's comment about the Jewish black man, and Zak's comment about SNL, I also seem to recall some comedic shorts on SNL done by Murphy in which he donned "white" make-up to pass himself off as white.

In the skit, Murphy discovers a few things about white folks, two of which were:
(1) they walk with a tight butt and (2) when they are alone, they give things to each other....things that if you were any color but white, you'd have to pay for.

As a "white" man, were you or any "YT tighty" person you know offended by those skits? I don't know of a single white person who was offended. We got the joke and, as such, laughed right along with Murphy and all of black America.

But, as I said, in my commentary over at mythoughtworld.com, reverse the roles and you've got potential trouble. The probability is high, especially among card carrying liberwocks, that they'll have a relapse of Pathological Race Sensitivity Syndrome (PRSS). This is never more true than when they have an axe to grind (ask Geraldine Ferraro). The hypersensitivity combined with an ulterior motive helps them "see" evidence of racism, where there is none. The "condition" is so ingrained that the media can't even spot their own perversion of any scenario involving "race."

Fortunately, a few of us can see right through the pretense of moral virtue they use as a cloak to hide the hatred they have for the color of their own skin. But in this case, it's white liberals and automatoid Americans who can't seem to get on with life and who will continue to use race to divide America...all because of latent guilt, racial hypersensitivity, and an inability to THINK beyond the emotive character of liberalism.

How sad and pathetic.
You know, if you folks who are fed up with "white sensitivity syndrome" and "apologizing for whiteness" just can't take it anymore, you can always move to a place where it isn't a problem. I've mentioned this before, but I'll just say it again. "White" in the pejorative sense has meant (or had meant before a significant portion of the midwest moved to the Bay Area) something different than caucasian where i've grownup. It meant someone without any culture and applied just as much to the black yuppie as the white yuppie. Ironically this is very similar to what many conservatives actually mean when they say "liberal" someone without any roots or grounding.

I'm sure this soun ds absurd to you. I suppose it would to someone who has grown up somewhere where they feel ashamed for their own race. All I can do is shrug. Some of us white folk don't need to feel guilty, don't, and frankly just don't care about this strange rise of racial politics that seems to be arising from the bible belt.

Uh... WHAT? I can't say you sound absurd, because that assumes I could make some sense out of it, when the only part that was understandable was at the end, where you take a gratuitous and unsubstantiated shot at a group you apparently don't like.

Well-adjusted people don't care about race, which means they will say whatever they consider appropriate regardless of whether you want to offend yourself by it, Furthermore, most whites, especially me, don't have any ties to slavery whatsoever, and refuse to accept even the suggestion of guilt for it or any form of discrimination.

That well adjusted people don't give a flying fuck is basically what I am saying, Ted.

Well, I feel privileged that I was able to help you clarify.it.

Thanks.

Smiles.
Good for you, Mr. H. Welcome to the club. We're not into "white guilt" either. But racial politics isn't some anomaly of the Bible Belt. It's a state of mind encompassing the culture, and the current P.C. philosophy is pretty much gospel among mainstream media. That explains why we have the makings of a full blown movement. And movements affect people, H, even apathetic people like you. When that happens, you'll no longer be "well adjusted" I can assure you. This isn't about white guilt, though, the larger issues of hate speech and free speech are being driven by it. There are the counterintuitive consequences of what can happen when an individual or group can't say something which is true simply because the P.C. thought police find it offensive.
That is one view I suppose.

No one is stopping me from saying or thinking anything. If someone gives you crap, tell them to stuff it. I don't find a movement of victim hood compelling at all.

Hen, are we being ever so slightly disingenuous? And by "we" I mean you? Your side is ever anxious to restrict more and more speech... and then criminalize it.

Although I'm assuming your side is still your side... unless maybe you read David Mamet today?

Not a bit disingenuous, Ted. I've told you before what I think of sides.
Well, uh...I'd like to know what you think of "sides," H. Is this coming from someone who doesn't believe in sides, like say, a vegetarian. Or someone who doesn't believe in positions, like maybe a liberal. Then again, I can conceptualize the worst of both worlds...lol...a liberal vegetarian. They don't take sides (unless someone opposes them...NOT!) and they don't eat sides (beef in this case) opting, instead, for a hearty tuber. Of course, the latter will go out the window (vegetarianism...not the tuber) once there's nothing left to eat and it's just you, me, and grandma standing there. Three guesses on who has dibs on grandma and the first two don't count.

Seriously, though, Ted cuts to what I was getting at in my earlier comment. You can't tell people off if it becomes illegal to do so. Lawmakers are regulating what you can and can't say (or write), calling it hate speech. Thus begins the erosion of free speech. This is why I give a flip about such things.
I like you too, Chad.

liberwocks

Fun.

You know, if you folks who are fed up with "white sensitivity syndrome" and "apologizing for whiteness" just can't take it anymore, you can always move to a place where it isn't a problem.

I'm not sure that suggestion is up to your usual standard of thought, Henesua.

"White" in the pejorative sense has meant (or had meant before a significant portion of the midwest moved to the Bay Area) something different than caucasian where i've grownup. It meant someone without any culture and applied just as much to the black yuppie as the white yuppie.

That is a view that I have never once heard. White has always meant Caucasian to me. When people spoke jokingly or insultingly of whites, it was never to decry their lack of culture. Rather, it was poking fun at their culture itself. I'm not sure how a black yuppie would feel about being called white in any regard, since I am sure they would dispute with you that their social mobility has nothing to do with their race and everything to do with their personal character.

I suppose it would to someone who has grown up somewhere where they feel ashamed for their own race. All I can do is shrug. Some of us white folk don't need to feel guilty, don't, and frankly just don't care about this strange rise of racial politics that seems to be arising from the bible belt.

In the bible belt, my experience has been that people respect their boundaries. Poor, uneducated whites may be racists, but so may poor uneducated blacks. Race relations in the South are much better than those in the North, in my experience. I don't know how it is out West, having never been beyond Mississippi, where my black companions were nervous but had no problems.

The problem as I see it is that race/identity politics is being foisted upon us by an oversensitive media, besotted with progressive liberalism. Children such as myself were indoctrinated with the "history" of race in this country, which reached its apex in the 1960s. There was never nuance in my textbooks, and when it comes to race I think that understanding the different shades of the argument is of paramount importance.



I think we agree that there is no reason to pay attention to race politics. My worry is that people still do, and use it to inform their political decisions.

Although I'm assuming your side is still your side... unless maybe you read David Mamet today?

I read that piece...enjoyed it immensely, but I am not sure he'll be going to work for National Review anytime soon.
Chad, if you can only see politics in the frame of "liberal" and "conservative" or "red" and "blue" or whatever other illusory metaphor that you believe is as solid as stone then I doubt you are currently prepared to understand how someone could have a pragmatic view of policy and government.

Scio, your worry is more real than the reality. That first statement of mine illustrates that just as much as anything else. You see I have grown up in a place with actual diversity and a real history of racial politics - like the Black Panthers for example. No caucasian person ever needs to apologize for the color of their skin, and if someone wants to foist that on you well frankly you do as I have done and grow the balls to stand up for yourself.

Given my own experience where I have frequently found myself as the only caucasian in the room or the only person who spoke English, I don't find this discussion believable especially because it appears to come from a bunch of people who have always been in the majority. To me this crap about "white sensitivity" just looks like pure delusion. How could you possibly be that aware of your skin unless day in and day out you have been made aware that you are not like everyone around you? I have had that experience (in short phases throughout my life growing up - not constantly) and so I simply stood up for myself, and learned to speak freely. Did the law smack me down or any other authority when I did so? No. What I got was respect.

The funny thing is that this seems to be more the situation out West than in the North East - which is supposedly liberal and ultra PC. The South is something else entirely and I have never been to the Middle West so I can't say much about it. But to me the issues of race change from region to region based upon each area's history. And if you want to see a place with real racial disfunction you need to hang out in the old ghettos of New York City. It would take an entire post to explain to you my shock at the actual racism there. Or you could check out the weird divisions between "white" people in New England based upon race and religion. So maybe that is where this BS comes from. I dunno. And frankly I don't care because it isn't my problem. But if you want to understand this thing you are worried about I urge you to delve much deeper than any of you appear to be doing. To claim as a "white" person to be oppressed by racial prudery and forced niceties is a joke to me. People are always going to bitch and moan about what they believe is insensitive or whatever.

One solution is to tell them to stuff it. It works. Yes you could handle it other ways, but since you do have the freedom to tell people to piss off when they can't take a joke - I think things are just fine.
Henesua,

Sorry, I'm not following your train of thought as it pertains to my last comment.

But I'll go ahead and address what you just wrote concerning the politically polarized lenses I happen to be wearing. Just because MY views are in stone doesn't mean I don't recognize that politically/ideologically these things don't shake out differently among groups and individuals. The very idea that the political realm only exists in two colors is an absurd notion, I agree.

It's popular to characterize wingnuts like myself in this wooden fashion, But like so many stereotypes, it isn't axiomatic. Rather, dividing the political world into conservative and liberal is more about degree and numbers than it is about replicating the standard "model." To that end it is beneficial to use those labels. So, like you, there is a degree of pragmatism in how I see the world, because practically speaking, that's how the demographics play out. But pragmatism as an absolute (in "stone" to use your term) applied to government and policy is dangerous due to its plasticity. I understand it; I just don't think it's reasonable in the context I mentioned. Pragmatism is its own end and, so, does what is "best" for itself or for the in-group. Yet, it defines no parameters for what is best. In that sense, H, it is self refuting. But beyond that, it creates a problem for those who aren't members of the in-group. It's a "me first" philosophy which rationalizes the exploitation of those who are too weak to defend themselves and I'm not "down with that" no matter how politically expedient it might be. That is what I was alluding to with the "grandma" metaphor.

In a society governed by pragmatism there would be no principled reason NOT to eat grandma, if the circumstances called for it. She's the weakest; she's going to die first anyway; she can't contribute to the group other than to offer herself as a food source; Pragmatically, it makes "sense" for us to eat her, irrespective of her wish to live or any moral construct which might confute her or us... That leaves one alternative...I call the dark meat!
You are fooled by your own eloquence, Chad. A pragmatic approach is applied to effectively achieve the outcome you want. There is nothing more to it, and so your grandma example is as absurd as it is false. Given that people do have a sense of right and wrong (regardless of the shades of gray between individual perspectives) and given that a normal well adjusted person recognizes that grandma has desires of her own, eating grandma would not be a pragmatic approach at all. No, it would damage the cohesion of the group as desperate acts of cannibalism always do merely because they rip up the social contract. One can't discuss public policy while ignoring humanity, but you seem to think pragmatism necessitates it.

Nope, sorry, the labels don't work. They are blinders. And furthermore the way they are used makes either of them, "Liberal" or "Conservative", as meaningless as the epithet "Fascist" which these days seems to equally apply to either "side".

So as one who looks at "Race" with these blinders on, how can you expect to be taken seriously or even as genuine? You're complaining about racial politics from an obvious political camp rather than as a person with personal grievances. I call bullshit when I see it. So again I say to you, a movement which wallows in victimhood is a joke on anyone that wishes to identify with it.

If you feel that you are a victim because you are a conservative or because you are "white" or whatever else, then do something about it. But whining about it just doesn't cut it. And whining about something like "Race" about which you seem to know nothing more than what is shed to you through the light of your television ... well given that I don't actually know your situation I'll just leave it there. But from where I am standing thats how it looks, and that is why I suggest at the least trying to understand that there are places in the US where this "Racial Problem" is not at all of the size you make it out to be.
Chad, I do have to add this so we don't waste anymore time arguing about "evil liberals" and whether or not I am "one a dem". I do recognize the issues of the bleeding heart new england waspy liberal who secretly sees their work to making things good for african americans as their white man's burden, and so openly runs around seeking opportunities to get in the way. They've got blinders too. Yeah. Its clear. But again where I live its not a problem because shortly after these folks move into the inner bay area they get over their BS attitudes toward race.

Again, as soon as people of different races actually interact with one another as equals all this BS goes away. The real problem I think is that there isn't enough interaction which leads to the kind of ignorance that I am accusing just about every other person in this thread of. And no, blogging and internet chatting do not count as real interaction just as reading news or watching TV don't do much for one's understanding of people either.

I have never been to the Middle West so I can't say much about it.

Some of us white folk don't need to feel guilty, don't, and frankly just don't care about this strange rise of racial politics that seems to be arising from the bible belt.

Sometimes one doesn't have to say much to say a lot.

I read that piece...enjoyed it immensely, but I am not sure he'll be going to work for National Review anytime soon

I enjoyed it too, but I struck by Mamet's eleventh hour conversion, and the question: why don't thinkers think? he admits to being blinded by ideology, but that isn't good enough since we expect people of his ability and intelligence not to be so blind.

And I might add that while I'm glad you read it, apparently someone here who needs to... hasn't.

Hen,

Do the letters FOS mean anything to you? Maybe if I wrote them backward and you held them up to a mirror?

Those people who move into your "enlightened area" don't shed anything, they merely sublimate it until opportunity for implementation presents itself, and you, being in California, are shockingly naive since that state is the PC leader.

And the PC label itself does this discussion a disservice since it's so much more dangerous than that trite little moniker implies.

Furthermore, your ability to stand up and resist is admirable, and I, myself, have never been shy, but that's because I'm virtually untouchable, and anyway, this isn't about individual initiative, it's about mass suppression in which evil people (liberals) attempt to implement their views by force of law with attendant real and hideous penalties should you decide to utter something "they" have codified.

And another thing, how dare you presume to have had more experience than, say, me. You haven't lived until your black roommate pulls a knife on you because he's frustrated arguing with you, or until you manage a commissary at Cleveland Municipal Stadium when you're still in your teens and had 90% of the vendors be black and for them, there were two games going on - the ballgame and the game of ripping you (the food company) off.

But am I bitter? No, it merely helped raise my awareness, if not my sympathy level. I even continued to live with the roommate - after he got out...

Im glad i had time to read this and following comments, it reminds me of todays events. I just got kicked out of someones neighborhood and in a round about way called a racist because I didnt happen to agree that a certain so-called racist comment made on the Rush Limbaugh show by a caller was a big deal.

Lesson learned today just from that one blog, if you believe everyone is equal in todays world then your ignorant and a racist, if you pity people for the past that they for the most part never even lived, then that makes you enlightened.

done ranting, sorry its been a hellacious day. :)

Racist or not:

Tonight Michael Savage demanded a caller to "Name a black-run country in the world you'd want to live in."

I know what I think, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

One solution is to tell them to stuff it. It works. Yes you could handle it other ways, but since you do have the freedom to tell people to piss off when they can't take a joke

If I'm ever in the position to make a difference, I will. But I just can't think of any white person who has won in the court of public opinion after making a racially "insensitive" comment or performance. It is either ignored completely or blown up by the likes of Al Sharpton.


Tonight Michael Savage demanded a caller to "Name a black-run country in the world you'd want to live in."

"Savage is like an old uncle who says things I don't always agree with."

Seriously, though, I don't like Savage's approach. I think he does more harm than good in some ways. But he gives voice to the visceral feelings both sides have.
Links, Links! I want to be blocked as well!
Scio,
I think there are two basic arenas in which this solution can be used. The one where it is most useful is when those folks shuffle their feet. So if you happen to have Al Sharpton in your social circle, I'd be surprised - although also impressed as I imagine the home cooking would have to be really good to entice celebrities over to a shindig. But hell, thats a great opportunity to ply him with alcohol and open up with say Chris Rock's routine "black people vs. niggers", pretend its your own material, and then watch his reaction when he learns its stand up by a famous black man.

OR whatever. The point is not to cave to public opinion. Stand up for yourself if you think your right. You can always admit you were wrong later and be the even bigger man for it, but to let people walk all over you is ridiculous. I've never let it happen to me even when I was the only gringo or the only whitey in the room.

Now as to the other arena in which I suspect Ted is more concerned with the whole Hate Crime thing. Well the law sucks, but what are you going to do. Whining won't solve it. If you want a law repealed you have to attack it on its actual demerits, not this "pc liberals suck" movement.

Otherwise, I'm sticking by my stance that the conservative backlash against PCist speach along with the whole white sensitivity thing is weaker than horse piss

Holy cow, Hen, you must be a very physically strong individual, because that was some load you just laid on us.

First off, even if something I said couldn't be charged as a hate crime, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be arrested with all the attendant nuisance, expense and stigma, and for you to dismiss these laws as you have is absolutely outrageous. I mean, what, they're a minor irritant to you, something in the abstract that you, yourself, will never have to contend with because you're careful?

Sickening.

And personally, I've written a number of jokes and an entire routine that I can't use because only the likes of Chris Rock can do "racially sensitive" jokes. Can you imagine a white man doing the routine you mentioned?

Ted, I agreed that the Hate Crime Law sucks. But to get it repealed you need to attack it on its demerits. Got it? The particular tack that is taken by conservatives is a bad joke. And calling the pathetic anti-pc "movement" as weak as horse piss is actually given it more than it deserves.

All you need to do is attack the laws on their absurdity, because ultimately they are thought crimes - an absurdity. Eventually that battle will be won. Fight it with real arguments. Maybe some logic. But again the whining is weak.

You've totally missed the point this time. By a wide wide margin. You're a bright guy. I shouldn't have to spell things out at an 8th grade level for you to understand.

The rest of my comments as should be obvious given the content of the post and the content of 90% of the comments by others here is about the cultural issues of racial sensitivity. Was that not obvious enough to you? I mean, come on.

The problem seems to be that you missed your own point. You want to characterize these laws as something for intellectuals to ponder and come up with an alternative, and that will be immediately obvious... TO WHOM, the jackasses left and right who signed on to these laws?

Because I'd be screaming all kinds of racial epithets, gay epithets, even female epithets all over America were it not for fear of being arrested. In fact, I'd swear at anyone who's a member of any group (I particularly hate chess club people).

It's so bad you that don't want to confront a black woman with too many items in the express line.

And while we're at it, why aren't YOU attacking these laws with your profoundly rational arguments and watching them fall like dominoes?

So don't patronize me, I always understand unless I don't want to, and this isn't one of those times - it's not that I didn't understand you, it's that I understood you better than you understand yourself... and better than I want to.

I believe the person in question has changed comments to neighborhood only but here is the link.

Im going to write a post about it and a another post she wrote about that post which directed some condescending and immature comments my way but just havent got around to it, it may be later today or tomorrow.



Chris Rock is a boring racist.

Approval required for the comment. How can we ever get past this racism thing if we're not allowed to speak freely? Are we somehow worried that something we say will be worse than what has come before? Give me a break!
Ted, it seems this is one of the times that you don't want to understand for if you can say this to me:
"First off, even if something I said couldn't be charged as a hate crime, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be arrested with all the attendant nuisance, expense and stigma, and for you to dismiss these laws as you have is absolutely outrageous. I mean, what, they're a minor irritant to you, something in the abstract that you, yourself, will never have to contend with because you're careful?"

then you are on a tangent that I've never been with you on.

There are two discussions here. One is about Hate Crime Law which I have largely not participated in - except to bring up that that was what I thought you were concerned about. The other is about the social stigma of discussing race if you are white. Almost every comment of mine addressed the later not the former. And my stance continues to be that bitching about the social stigma is a joke.

As to characterizing laws as an ivory tower discussion for intellectuals... well... if you want to characterize it that way, go ahead. But that is not what i have done. Nope. I just think that any discussion of law needs to be primarily about the law/good government etc.... Ranting about the horrible PC-culture of liberals and hoping that your rant will lead to the repeal of Hate Crime Law is extremely naive (which I know you are not so that you would seem to do so here surprises me).

So anyway. I'm not going to address how sickened you are of whatever you think I am thinking. That you have no idea where I am coming from is not my problem. I've clear enough. If your conservative frame of reference needs to make me out to be your enemy here, you certainly don't know how to successfully "fight the fight".

Now as to what i think needs to be said about the hate crime laws: the argument should center on the fact that hate crime is thought crime and therefore extremely difficult to conclusively prove. In fact it so difficult that I'd call it functionally impossible to prove a hate crime. There are the other arguments as well, and they have merit, but are unnecessary to convince me.

It is that simple - far from something loftily intellectual. And I believe it would indeed eventually convince many liberals.
Hmm... i cant or couldnt comment at all unless one of the settings been changed in the last day or two. It doesnt even give me the comment option and since ive never had the desire to stop anyone from commenting im not sure how that works.

I doubt we'll ever get past it at least not until several generations into the future if even then. The only thing that still gives me hope for better racial relations in the future, is each generation i see less and less people like some of the commenter's in the other blog and see more and more who want complete equality instead of preferred treatment because of their race or culture.

Crap!

Look, I'd try anything to get you to stop talking concepts and deal with practicalities. This is what's so frustrating in arguing with liberals - THERE IS NO TRANSITION, at least not in our lifetimes. Everything is looked at in terms of the "ideal," and that can result in justifying almost anything to get to it..

Furthermore, what you want to do is separate the offhand epithet from the Orwellian hate crime charge, and you can't. Sure you might get away with the former again and again, but "get away with" is the operative phrase. You always have to be careful of where and when, and even then, there's the very real chance that something you say will have unintended consequences - that is if you're doing your job as a citizen correctly and challenging, provoking these draconian laws that are the product of the smallest of minds.

The fact that these laws exist is the greater offense. I could say many things that are offensive, but if I say the wrong things, they go beyond offensive into the realm of criminal.

I could argue on your terms, but that would be meaningless, which itself leaves me under no illusion that my "rants" will affect anything - and that's why your sort of reaction moves me to want to skip the argument with people like yourself* and simply punch their face in. That way, I haven't said anything and can't be accused of a hate crime - just a simple misdemeanor.battery.

* Though certainly not you.

Well if you don't really want to talk about it with me, that is your choice, Ted. Please make it clearer in the future, and I'll leave you alone. I'd rather not waste my time either.

Henry, my mistake is in -wanting- to talk about it with you and then letting you control the direction. I did that because I was under the impression that you were more rational than the average liberal - because you assured me you were.

So I'm very disappointed with you. I see you fancy yourself as one who is aware and above this particular fray, but in fact, you are merely naive and detached which makes you part of the problem if you are to be believed, because you see all this as somebody else's worry..

On top of that, you don't seem to realize that a rational and logical argument is very often not enough to prevail. In fact, it's becoming increasingly rare, it seems, for reason to win out. I found that out the hard way thirty years ago. You haven't learned it yet, which means that either your real-life experiences are less than you've made them out to be or you've been disengaged other than in your imagination, and your comments here seem to provide evidence of the latter.

Your ability to separate the arguments in this thread into two parts is commendable, but only if you'd been able then to understand that the two are inextricably intertwined, and the fact that you haven't been personally affected on the legal side is akin to that homily about what happened when they came for the Jews...

Ted, for the most part your schtick is entertaining, and there are parts about your commentary which earn you my respect, but the continuous ad hominem is not one of them. This conversation would be much more pleasurable if you would take your own advice and manage it without this platitudinous crutch of yours. I suspect that you don't see any reason to do so as you've had this argument on race and hate crime a million times somewhere else. One reason why I suggested discussing this from a rational and legal stand point is that frankly you don't have any experience negotiating circumstances in which your race marks you as the minority. Without that experience, given that you are a self-proclaimed know it all, you have demonstrated a severe handicap with even understanding racial issues. There are other reasons to carry this out in a purely rational basis, a notable one being that irrational content does not convey well over the internet.

I do apologize for how humorless I have been. Admittedly it comes from talking with someone with at best a provincial understanding of the subject when compared with my own. I look forward with the audacity of Bob Hope's optimism that our next meeting will be more entertaining.

Tony Randall- The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao. Not only was this a great performance from Mr. Randall but also it is a great study of human nature. I can't recall that the Chinese residents burned “China Town” to the ground over the outrage that this white actor played an ancient Chinese Wiseman.

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