Saw McCain Today

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I'm not looking forward to November. I have no interest in working on the campaign or sending money. I worked on campaigns every election year from 1964 (I was 12) until 1998. I am burned out, I haven't watched C-Span in years and usually only watch CNBC. McCain is the Senate's Deal Maker and I don't see deals with the left as good for me or my country. McCain could be an improvement from the Bush family which all but killed the conservative movement in the Republican Party. Bah! Humbug!
You may not agree with me, but I believe 95% of Americns agree that radical Islam must be confronted. The great difference is tactics. If the war between democracy and fundamentalism is one of ideas, can you win that with fighter jets, missiles, bombs, tanks, and destroyers? Will another $700 billion of defense spending -- that's more than $2,000 per American -- make us safer?

To his credit, McCain has been the most courageous conscience -- of both parties -- against wasteful defense spending.
If Obama can overcome the Clinton machine to take the nomination, you Republicans are in for a huge landslide defeat in November.

The irony is that it is only because George W. Bush is such a terrible leader and made so many horrible decisions (66% disapproval-- yikes!) that Barack Obama-- a black man with an Arab middle name, no less-- now has the very real possibility of being the next President.

You reap what you sow, Republicans.

Be careful what you wish for- it might come true. It amazes me that every election intelligent people give up their ethics, morals, common sense and dignity and vote for politicians who use the police power of the state to steal money from their neighbors, relatives and themselves and hand it out to other people who did not earn it.

Zak-- dont you think that exact statement could easily be applied to people who voted for George W. Bush?

ethics, morals, common sense, dignity... those things are sorely lacking in the current administration. and this administration IS stealing money-- not just from us, but from our children and grandchildren as well.

Lenny, this may very well be our last exchange because I feel I've indulged you long enough. Clearly you know the difference between sense and nonsense because when you appear on my blog you're doing your best impersonation of rational, but then I encounter you elsewhere and your comments range from the ridiculous to the deranged.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating that you remind me of a guy from 2004 who made it a point to tell us all most forcefully that we're all fools and suckers because Bush was "going down" and how he was going to return after the election to give us a proper mocking once Kerry was elected. Later, I had to plead with him to return because I really wanted to see what it would look like even if his dream hadn't come true, and do you know, he wouldn't even acknowledge me?

Now see, when we criticize Democrats in general and the Clintons in particular, we do it about real, demonstrable things, but when your lot applies its labels, it's always vague, and when you're asked to clarify, the explanations, on those rare occasions when they are forthcoming, are general, nebulous and unsubstantiated, - at least I assume they are since not one has ever been proven true.

Take the "Bush lied" garbage. I asked whole forums of liberal fools to provide one actual example, and all I ever got back was answers of the "I just know." variety. And I'm sure that if I request that you provide similar examples to bear out your charges of a lack of ethics, morals, etc, I'd get a wonderfully amorphous answer that under other circumstances, I might find rather amusing..

But what actually was amusing was the idea implicit in your comment that Republicans/conservatives are anti-black because as you know, and as you've now seen firsthand, the bigotry is a trademark of Democrats/liberals. And Lenny, I don't say things I can't demonstrate. Whether it's Lyndon Johnson thwarting the civil rights act in the '50s to Byrd's several "niggers' comments on live TV to the quiet bigotry of the Clinton campaign, you own it.

And thus it remains to be seen that Obama has "a very real possibility." Because if you think about what you said, it's very difficult to get at what you meant.

Was it that heretofore, a black had no chance because Republicans wouldn't vote for him? Are you that ignorant? I mean who exactly will this black vote for this black guy who wouldn't before? Democrats?

Because I assure you, Colin Powell has a "very real possibility" in '96 if he'd wanted it.

So, it not only remains to be seen whether Dems will vote for a black, but whether than black has any substance at all. If the hollow rhetoric can sustain him, I'll be amazed because Kerry's couldn't and it had traces of substance.

So hang on to your dream, and if it does come true, let's both hope it's because Barry found something tangible to run on between now and election day, shall we?

"Now see, when we criticize Democrats in general and the Clintons in particular, we do it about real, demonstrable things, but when your lot applies its labels, it's always vague, and when you're asked to clarify, the explanations, on those rare occasions when they are forthcoming, are general, nebulous and unsubstantiated, - at least I assume they are since not one has ever been proven true."
Excuse me, but what a load of shit. You want "real, demonstrable" criticisms? I'll give you a boatload. The problem, i fear, is that you -- like many conservatives-- will likely see them as strengths.

Let's start with an easy one: Violating the Bill of Rights.

The 4th Amendment states: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Since nearly the beginning of his Presidency, George W. Bush has been-- with the cooperation of the telecom industry-- violating the 4th Amendment. They have been monitoring all electronic communications-- both foreign AND domestic. They have actually been running the entire internet through servers and data-mining it:


"...AT&T is diverting Internet traffic into the hands of the NSA wholesale, in violation of federal wiretapping laws and the Fourth Amendment,"

[...]

"One of the documents listed the equipment installed in the [AT&T] secret room, and this list included a Narus STA 6400, which is a "Semantic Traffic Analyzer". The Narus STA technology is known to be used particularly by government intelligence agencies because of its ability to sift through large amounts of data looking for preprogrammed targets. The company's advertising boasts that its technology "captures comprehensive customer usage data ... and transforms it into actionable information.... (It) provides complete visibility for all internet applications."

Ted-- were you aware that the Bush Administration started this program of domestic surveillance in violation of the Constitution a full SEVEN MONTHS BEFORE 9/11?

And what about the 6th Amendment?

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.


The Bush Administration has held US CITIZENS in military prisons for years, without charge, access to counsel, or trial. Jose Padilla, who then-Attorney General John "cover-that-statue's-boobs!" Ashcroft interrupted a visit to Moscow to breathlessly claim was trying to detonate a "dirty bomb", was held for 3 and a half years as an "enemy combatant" and denied habeus corpus. As the case was about to finally be heard before the Supreme court, the Government suddenly had a change of heart and charged him with conspiracy.

Not one of the original allegations put forward by the U.S. government three years prior-- the claims that resulted in Padilla being held in the majority in solitary confinement throughout that period-- were part of the indictment: There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States; there is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country, and-- most importantly; there is no direct mention of Al Qaeda.

Considering Padilla was held for years in military custody with no formal charges brought, this is a pretty curious move by the Bush Administration, dont you think?

Bush basically set the precedent that the U.S. government now has the right to detain citizens indefinitely without charges, without access to counsel, and without presenting the cause that would eventually be tried.

Like I said Ted-- you probably think these violations are at worst no big deal, or at best the right thing to do, but if we truly are a nation of laws, and if-- as we always say-- no man is above that law, then there is no other conclusion a person can come to: George W. Bush has broken his oath of office by violating the founding document of our Republic.

I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Is that "real" and "demonstrable" enough for you?

Well, at least I was successful in bringing your lunacy into full bloom. I won't deal with that disjointed nonsense, Lenny, because you, yourself, are incapable of grasping where and in how many areas you've gone wrong. You assume facts and truth where there either is none or it hasn't been established, and you appear to have ignored court decisions. In short, you've manufactured what you want to see, and where details either don't exist or don't fit, you've simply ignored them or made them up.

Just look at the comment from the main idiot on one of your links:

"That means that, on behalf of your US government, AT&T has been reading your email, watching what sites you visit and listening in on your chats. In their eyes, we're all terrorists, and we're all subject to warrantless wiretapping and monitoring. Outraged yet?"

No, I'm not outraged because it doesn't mean anything of the kind. Lenny, you have to stop hanging out with and reading what fools write because people may start to think you are one.

When you have something concrete and coherent, I'll consider it. In the meantime, get help.

"lunacy"

"disjointed nonsense"


What-the-fuck-ever Ted. You FIRST attack me based on the fact that i (like all liberals, in you mind) provide no details, are vague, unsubstantiated, etc.

So i give you a nice detailed account of the willful, and deliberate (and in one case, repeated) violation of 2 amendments to the United States Constitution.

You then seize upon the rhetoric of a columnist in one of my links to attack my intellect and judgment, yet ignore the substantial crux of the argument: AT&T is diverting Internet traffic into the hands of the NSA wholesale, in violation of federal wiretapping laws and the Fourth Amendment.

It's just factually true Ted. It IS happening, it IS real, and it is NOT "lunacy" to point out that very real-- and CONCRETE fact.

If you-- a supposed member of the party of small government, the party that has always advocated LESS government in our lives, the party of the man that claimed in January of 1981 that Government was not the solution to our problem, but was itself the PROBLEM-- choose to either NOT believe that this is actually occurring, or (worse) believe that this is an appropriate role for the United States government, than you need to shed your mantle as "the naked conservative" and replace it with "the authoritarian conservative."
Wow, how does this relate to me getting pushed aside by a fat guy and not getting to shake the hand of the Democrat's Repulican?

I think it's important to discuss the real world applications of this stuff. How has the government violated your rights? I suppose what I mean is, if you aren't noticing any kind of persecution in your daily life then how can you be sure that we have a festering tyranny on our hands?
yeah-- apologies for hijacking your post.

with regard to "real-world applications":

In my understanding, the Constitution is a absolute document. If the government is violating the Constitution, it affects EVERYONE-- even if that transgression doesnt directly touch you.

In the case of the 6th Amendment, it doesnt affect me directly, but if the Government now reserves the right to detain-- without charge or access to counsel-- a US citizen, it really affects ALL of us. You know-- slippery slope, etc etc. Surely you remember Martin Niemoeller's poem, yes?

When the Nazis came for the communist,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

With respect to the 4th Amendment and the illegal surveillance of Americans' communications, there is just no way of knowing who has been affected. But if, as reported, the entire internet is being filtered and data-mined-- likely with sophisticated word and pattern-recognition software-- you can bet that your communications have been scrutinized. With phone communications, the case is likely very similar, since the same companies that control the internet in large part control voice data as well.

I am a citizen of two countries-- i communicate regularly with family and friends overseas-- i have little doubt that my communications have been the subject of Bush's wiretapping program, as have the communications of all Americans who communicate with people outside of the country.

When the government declares the the right to ignore the law-- no matter how narrowly they justify it, the liberty of ALL Americans is at risk.

If my appeals to your (and Ted's) respect for the Constitution are not enough, allow me to appeal to your partisanship: What if President Hillary Clinton declared the right to do as Bush has done?

What if President Hillary Clinton declared the right to do as Bush has done?

Well quite frankly the media would label her a genius and say she was getting tough on terrorists.
To my thinking, the sad truth is that President Bush is following precedent here. In times of national crisis when the danger from a fifth column is very real and immediate, the United States has suspended certain liberties in the interest of preserving order. Lincoln took habeas corpus, Roosevelt detained Americans of Japanese descent, many different fellas tried to ferret out secret communists in the fifties, and Bush has taken to eavesdropping. In a digital age, where there is hardly a need for physical evidence to even exist in the plotting stages, we may have to reexamine our definitions and make some adjustments.

the Constitution is a absolute document. If the government is violating the Constitution, it affects EVERYONE-- even if that transgression doesnt directly touch you.

Yes, and any time we are faced with a situation in which the best option is to withdraw some of the protections afforded us by the Constitution in order to strip our hidden enemies of those same protections, then I'd say we are in a pickle. But the only smart thing to do is take on your enemies and remove the need for reduced liberties...then take up arms if you don't get them back. That's the American way.

If the government is violating the Constitution, it affects EVERYONE-- even if that transgression doesnt directly touch you.

But if it doesn't directly touch you how can you be sure it's as bad as people say? You take it on faith that it's a horrible slippery slope, but without demonstrable evidence of wrongdoing (that is, from a neutral mainstream source, not some 9/11 whackjobs) we can't even really be sure the government is listening in on all our conversations or reading all our e-mails. I have not seen evidence of an American citizen getting interrogated for saying:

"I want to put a bug bomb under my rose bush."

To be sure, the British know where that slippery slope leads. They have cameras on every street corner. But I think the central point to keep in mind when we evaluate these surveillance programs is how it actually affects the life of people who are doing no wrong versus how it affects those who are doing wrong.

To date, I would say that it is a fair trade. Radical Islam must be fought, and since it is engaging in terrorism then we must use countermeasures appropriate to the threat.

Yes, and any time we are faced with a situation in which the best option is to withdraw some of the protections afforded us by the Constitution in order to strip our hidden enemies of those same protections, then I'd say we are in a pickle. But the only smart thing to do is take on your enemies and remove the need for reduced liberties...then take up arms if you don't get them back. That's the American way.
For the most part i agree with you Scio, but the worry to me is more often then not they dont want to give them back once they have took them away. If they had any intent of giving them back then why not put a time table on them that can be renewed if the need is just? Then there is the taking up arms part, can you seriously see Americans taking up arms to force the government to give the right to privacy back?

Then there is the taking up arms part, can you seriously see Americans taking up arms to force the government to give the right to privacy back?

Hahaha, I'm a Southerner, of course I can!

One thing, though...it's not the right to privacy, which doesn't actually exist in the Constitution. It's implied, maybe. It is the explicit rights to due process and freedom from illegal search and seizure that are threatened. At least I think.
One thing, though...it's not the right to privacy, which doesn't actually exist in the Constitution. It's implied, maybe. It is the explicit rights to due process and freedom from illegal search and seizure that are threatened. At least I think.

Regardless of which, the point was whatever the government takes away from us in the name of protecting us they dont want to give it back once its not needed anymore. Its very hard to support something when based on the past you know that once its allowed it will always be allowed.There has to be a certain amount of limitations, if not the government could do anything or deny anything in the name of protecting us and considering who some of the presidential candidates are, id think that would worry you just a little. :)

whatever the government takes away from us in the name of protecting us they dont want to give it back once its not needed anymore.

Hence the 2nd Amendment. That is the people's check on the greed of those who govern for more power. There is always the implied threat of Revolution in our dealings with the government. It keeps them honest-ish.
Please. That is true in theory only-- especially since Bush has declared what is essentially permanent war. How fast do you think-- during "wartime" that anyone who participates in any sort of "revolution" would be declared an enemy combatant and locked up? My guess: Very.

this is what i wish people would see: Bush has declared "war" (even though that is a right afforded only to Congress in the Constitution), and as such, has afforded himself extra "war-time" powers as commander-in-chief. Further, he himself (as well as others in his Administration) has declared that this "war" will last years, decades, even "generations".

When is our "war" against the tactic of terrorism over? Is that when we get our full constitutional rights back?

I think it would be wise for all Americans, especially those in favor of "suspend[ing] certain liberties in the interest of preserving order", to remember the words of James Madison:

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad."

"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

"The executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question, whether there is or is not cause for declaring war."

"War should only be declared by the authority of the people, whose toils and treasures are to support its burdens, instead of the government which is to reap its fruits."

"Each generation should be made to bear the burden of its own wars, instead of carrying them on, at the expense of other generations."

I wish we had leaders today that were as smart as the ones we had back then.
There is always the implied threat of Revolution in our dealings with the government. It keeps them honest-ish.
Now that sounds like a true southerner, from my own experience most southerners have very little fear of the government, they know that ultimately the power lies in the hands of the people, unfortunately i dont feel many people in believe that anymore, they are afraid of the government so if the government decided to go overboard, im my opinion, i believe the majority of people would cower in their homes. They may run their mouths but i sincerely doubt they would have the gonads to actually act.

I had a discussion with a voxer a few months back basically over the same concept, he believed that the government would order the military to act against civilians if the civilians ever dared to take up arms. He like so many others dont really understand how the military is trained or he wouldnt believe that, but regardless the fear was there and that fear would paralyze many people.

He like so many others dont really understand how the military is trained or he wouldnt believe that,

I refuse to believe the army would not be split up between those loyal to the tyrannical government and those who would take up arms to fight it. Including top brass.
Bush has shown that he only cares about the opinions of the military when they already agree with him. (See: Troop levels, 2002)
Im sure there would be a split, but i fully believe the citizens would get the most benefit. Our soldiers are constantly trained that they are to protect the country and its people, so if the majority of people raised arms and they were in the right, it conflicts with military training for soldiers to act against the American citizenry.

Honestly though i dont believe this would be a scenario that would ever happen. we have to many checks and balances that would allow the government to act to that extreme. That doesnt mean i dont think there are a few politicians capable of trying it though.

I wish we had leaders today that were as smart as the ones we had back then.

So do we all. But I think the founding fathers never envisioned a world in which an enemy could cross the ocean in hours rather than days. I think to a certain extent we are bound by the decisions of previous administrations which increased our role in the world (Wilson, both Roosevelts, I'm looking at you) at the expense of that long-established isolation.
And now, it would be irresponsible to abandon the responsibilities we've taken on. Hence our continue global involvement.

Bush has declared "war" (even though that is a right afforded only to Congress in the Constitution)

What's all this talk of Democrats voting for the war then? If Congress authorized the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan I don't think you have a leg to stand on there.

How fast do you think-- during "wartime" that anyone who participates in any sort of "revolution" would be declared an enemy combatant and locked up? My guess: Very.

Sure, if you play it like a dumb hippie. My contention is that it isn't nearly so bad yet. But if it did become a situation where the gov't was actually oppressing its own citizens, then I believe we have an obligation to change that gov't. Or die trying. Either is good.


When is our "war" against the tactic of terrorism over? Is that when we get our full constitutional rights back?

Yeah, I think we need to start a movement to do away with generic talk of terrorism and just outright say we're going after radical Islamists. Once the radical faction of Islam has been killed off we can breathe easy for a while. I don't think we'll be going after the IRA next or anything like that.

It's radical Islam that's the problem, and if we stop being politically correct and just admit that it's an Islam problem we'll have a much better idea of when we can have those rights "back." Of course, I'd like to know when you were last searched and seized and when you had your right to due process revoked. Airport shoe checks don't count.

I'm not trying to discount the idea that the gov't may be abrogating our civil liberties, but I am trying to say that they are doing so in the least obtrusive way they possibly can out of an acknowledgment that their action is a necessary evil.

I'm not trying to discount the idea that the gov't may be abrogating our civil liberties, but I am trying to say that they are doing so in the least obtrusive way they possibly can out of an acknowledgment that their action is a necessary evil.
Yeah. Right. You keep thinking that. Keep trusting the government.

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