Relatively Important Post

Comments

How can anyone who claims to be open-minded steadfastly refuse to change their mind on the subject of Absolute Truth?
Being open-minded and relativistic does not necessarily mean that one does not live their own life by a strict set of rules. It does mean that they don't expect others to live by the exact same set of rules they do. It also means that as they become older (and hopefully wiser) they periodically review the rules they live by to see if that is still the way they think they should live.

Sometimes you find that you are living by a certain rule not because you think it is right, but because you have always done things that way. Maybe it was right and the best way to do things in the beginning, but as your life changes sometimes the rules need to change along with you.

People, unless insane, do not live as relativists. They care about truth and follow clear cut rules.
Perhaps they follow the rules because they want to. Life is easier if you follow the rules. It certainly helps to keep you out of prison. It's easier to fit into society and develop interpersonal relationships if you follow the rules. Even if the rules happen to be amoral.

It is quite possible to be open minded about the life styles of others and still have a strict code of conduct for your own life. People do it every day.

It is quite possible to be open minded about the life styles of others and still have a strict code of conduct for your own life. People do it every day.

But it is impossible to reach any real conclusions on a given subject unless one person amends their position. "Agree to Disagree" never cuts it when it comes to matters of life and death.

But it is impossible to reach any real conclusions on a given subject unless one person amends their position.

Why?

"Agree to Disagree" never cuts it when it comes to matters of life and death.
Using such absolutes as "never" will get you into trouble. It only takes one example to falsify the statement.

Using such absolutes as "never" will get you into trouble. It only takes one example to falsify the statement.

Relativism denies the basic understanding of truth, that it is universal. Something cannot be simultaneously true and false. So never can be used. Not about which route to the grocery store is best, but about things like abortion and war and such.
The current vogue is to merely "present one's opinion" and if someone should take issue with that then run to the safety of the lamest of rebuttals.
I believe the phrase you are looking for is: "you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts".

How can anyone who claims to be open-minded steadfastly refuse to change their mind on the subject of Absolute Truth?
It is a paradox. However, there is a difference between entertaining the possibility of being wrong and insisting that one is correct.

Something cannot be simultaneously true and false.
Ever study quantum mechanics? Schroedinger's cat comes to mind as an experiment in which both "truth values" are applicable before measurement (after measurement, only one is applicable, but which one cannot be determined before making the measurement).

On a more human note, can someone be both male and female? In about 1 birth out of every 10,000 the answer is yes. For nearly every aspect of human endeavor, the gray areas far outnumber the black and white ones.

The absolute truth is that there are some things that are relative, some things that are absolute, and some things that are just too damn weird to classify.

John
This is good stuff Scio. Keep it up!


The absolute truth is that there are some things that are relative, some things that are absolute, and some things that are just too damn weird to classify.

I'm willing to agree with that statement, though I maintain that morality falls into the area of absolutes. Meta-stuff, I think, can exist alongside more strictly rational perspectives and can even work with them in tandem.

Ever study quantum mechanics?

You ask that like someone else might ask, "Ever played baseball?" I used to watch Quantum Leap, if that helps.

The absolute truth is that there are some things that are relative, some things that are absolute, and some things that are just too damn weird to classify.

I'm willing to agree with that statement, though I maintain that morality falls into the area of absolutes. Meta-stuff, I think, can exist alongside more strictly rational perspectives and can even work with them in tandem.

The problem is that most moralists agree with you that morality is absolute, but disagree with you (sometimes violently) as to exactly what those absolutes should be. Is the sight of a naked woman obscene? What about a naked goat? Can one eat meat on a Friday? Can one eat people, ever? What is incest and does it matter?

If morality is absolute, then the results of immorality should be absolute as well. However, in mumbledy-some years of studying morals, I have only found two that are absolute - and they don't explicitly appear in any religious tome. One could argue that the absolute results are either ineffable or reserved for an afterlife, but that then begs the question of proof [1].

Ever study quantum mechanics?

You ask that like someone else might ask, "Ever played baseball?" I used to watch Quantum Leap, if that helps.

Sorry - now you know what it is like living in my head. The reason I brought up physical laws and genetic oddities is that they are absolutes. I can point to them and show how they are the same, no matter who does the experiment or makes the measurement [2]. But I've never met a moral that behaved the same way.

John

[1] Yes, I know; the answer to that is that moral are about belief, not proof. But that shifts them right out of the real of absolutes and right back into relativism because belief is relative.

[2] With appropriate allowances for social interactions; a male will get very different responses than a female will in most social situations, and race, ethnicity, background, and so forth further complicate matters as these are free variables in the social equation. (See, for example All Our Kin or Time and the Highland Maya.)
Scio - gotta say, you are dead on. I love your blog, man!

John - I believe you are making Scio's point for him.

Is the sight of a naked woman obscene? What about a naked goat? Can one eat meat on a Friday? Can one eat people, ever? What is incest and does it matter?

If you are a relativist, there is no definitive answer to any of these questions. For those who believe in moral absolutes, there is always a definitive answer to all these types of questions.

Additionally, as Scio quoted Cardinal Pell, "People may express their skepticism about truth and morality in lecture rooms or in print, but afterwards they will go on to sip a cappuccino, pay the mortgage, drive home on the left side of the road, and presumably avoid acts of murder and cannibalism throughout their evening. People, unless insane, do not live as relativists."

Although you promote relativism in your on-line posts, I'll bet you never murder anyone or eat your own children ever in your lifetime.

John - I believe you are making Scio's point for him.

Is the sight of a naked woman obscene? What about a naked goat? Can one eat meat on a Friday? Can one eat people, ever? What is incest and does it matter?


If you are a relativist, there is no definitive answer to any of these questions. For those who believe in moral absolutes, there is always a definitive answer to all these types of questions.

It all depends on how one defines "relativist". I acknowledge that many different cultures have come to different decisions about these issues, and that their decisions have changed over time. Am I a relativist?

And "absolutist" as well, I suppose. Ask any Southern Baptist today if slavery is wrong and they will (more likely than not) say it is; but that wasn't always the case. And yet, they say that the moral laws are eternal and unchanging.


Additionally, as Scio quoted Cardinal Pell, "People may express their skepticism about truth and morality in lecture rooms or in print, but afterwards they will go on to sip a cappuccino, pay the mortgage, drive home on the left side of the road, and presumably avoid acts of murder and cannibalism throughout their evening. People, unless insane, do not live as relativists."

If they only drive on the left where everyone else does, and only avoid cannibalism (even symbolic cannibalism) where everyone else does, but drive on the right in other places and indulge in cannibalism where everyone else does, then they do live their lives as relativists.

Although you promote relativism in your on-line posts, I'll bet you never murder anyone or eat your own children ever in your lifetime.

Not unless I have to.

Count Ugolino
(
er, I meant: John)

Post a comment

Already a Vox member? Sign in

Scio, Scio

About Me

Scio, Scio
United States
Scio quod nescio

Neighborhood

Explore friends, family, friends & family, or entire neighborhood.

Archives

Respect My Authoritah