P.O.V.

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[this is good]
I think I fall somewhere in the middle, too. I do my part -- I could do more. :)
[this is good]
The drama is what turns me off instantly.

Given the options: Save the field rat or plow my fields. I'm ploying the field. Even if I were not plowing - given the chance I'd still kill the rat.
[this is good]

Mostly I agree, although the custodial thing is a bit overblown.

Most people who want to preserve the natural world despise test tube wildlife - it's as freakish as plutonium to most of the biologists I know.

Anyone who understands the natural world likes it the way it is. And I promise you, Scio, "custodians" are not against development. As John correctly pointed out, I just so happen to love my hot showers and heat in the winter time.

But is there a way with technology, moderation and an open mind to have our cherished luxuries without annihilating the planet? There is. Remembering that we are only one species among many is the key.

These people are generally portrayed as villains on the show Captain Planet.
Yanno, I always wanted to write a Captain Planet episode where the kids try to shut down a plant that recycling, just because they mistake the clouds of steam coming up from the cooling towers as noxious pollution [1].

John

[1] "Pollution" of course, is a slippery word; it roughly means "anything that's not where you want it". Steam is pollution if you're trying to dry your clothes, but not if you are trying to iron them. CO2 is pollution when it comes out of the tailpipes of a million cars, but not when it comes from the lungs of a million deer. Manure is pollution when it is lying on your lawn, but it isn't when it is spread on your lawn. Etc., etc.

it's as freakish as plutonium to most of the biologists I know.

Odd - plutonium is a naturally occurring element. It is no more freakish than a ridge vent community or a gulper eel (or the way an octopus makes love).

John
You really do have way too much time on your hands!
8:-)
[this is good]

LOL yes John, but plutonium would not be blurred out on NBC news.

An octopus making love, however, may be restricted to cable.

[this is good]
Scio, I rather enjoyed this one. I think it's safe to say that most people fall somewhere in the middle of your scale (as with most scales).

I happen to fall on the Development side of the argument while I live my life more like I fall on the Custodial end of the spectrum. Some might call me 'cheap,' but I prefer the word 'frugal.' My car manages to squeeze out a full 27-30mpg and doesn't suffer the environmental disposal problems that those new hybrid engines suffer from - so what if it happens to be 16 years old? My electricity bill never passes the $20 mark because I'm always turning off lights and unplugging my television set - not because I care about Bambi and Thumper, but because I'm too damn chea...er....frugal to shell out more than my usual $20 monthly bill.

If people were actually more aware of how much money they could spend by eating healthier and living on a more limited income, I think that the environment would respond quite happily. Happy nature = more trees. More trees = more building material. More building material = more Super Wal-Mart. Super Wal-Mart = more frugality.
Come on, people!
Great to see the 19th century man vs. nature dialectic still kicking around in conservative circles. Atavism in action! Woohoo! To be fair I have met a fair number of liberal idiots that think this way too, BUT amongst educated environmentalists it is usually a shock to meet someone who can't even digest the writings of Aldo Leopold.

Good for you, Scio, for taking that extra step out of the darkages.

There is no dialectic. Humans are nature. Period. Until that is accepted we still see the type of craptacular development prevalent throughout the United States.
Define: Humans are nature.


They do not need definition in relation to one another. That is the point.

In the context of thinking about the environment, humans are not separate from nature. Humans have biological needs and functions and ecological impact where ever and however they live.

Trying to balance an equation with human activity on one side and the idealization of nature without humans on the other is an exercise in futility.

This poor thinking is one of the holes in the Wilderness Act. It is at the heart of the failure of Smoky the Bear era forest management. It is what marks the ideological difference between Preservation and Conservation.

Nature is the over arching system to which humans belong.
Nature is the over arching system to which humans belong.

I have to tell you up front, most of your statement made no sense to me.

Nature is the over arching system to which humans belong! What?

We are told by God to "subdue the earth." God also tells us "the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now (AD 1st century). Not only that but we also have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope.

Both sides are lacking. Preservation and Conservation - Because of sin that is in us and in this world. Because of sin, thorns and thistles are here on earth. We don't worship them, but we understand why they are here. We till the earth by the sweat of our brow because of them. We do not leave the thorns or thistles in the ground to take over, we are told to subdue them - the whole earth. The earth is not our guide, Christ Jesus is our guide.

We are told in the bible that this world will be burned up and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. There in is our hope. We don't want to live forever in a earth filled with sin and curses, we are looking forward to the earth that is pure without the curse.

For any who want to try to preserve this earth to it's before sin condition, it will be a disappointment. The moment our first parents [Adam & Eve] sinned and ate of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, we and the earth have been doomed. But the good news is: God doesn't leave us in that state. He loves us and has made a sacrifice for us, our sinfulness - to cleanse us and connect us with Him again. But the earth will groan until the coming of Christ.

How Deep The Father's Love

How deep the Father's love for us
How vast beyond all measure
That He should give His only Son
To make a wretch His treasure
How great the pain of searing loss
The Father turns His face away
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory

Behold the Man upon the cross
My sin upon His shoulders
Ashamed I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished
His dying breath has brought me life
I know that it is finished

I will not boast in anything
No gifts no power no wisdom
But I will boast in Jesus Christ
His death and resurrection
Why should I gain from His reward
I cannot give an answer
But this I know with all my heart
His wounds have paid my ransom.

Stuart Townend
Infidel writes:
I have to tell you up front, most of your statement made no sense to me.
I anticipated this statement and your post from the moment you asked me to define "Humans are nature", and I could easily throw your comment right back at you and reply the same to your comment above. That would be the easy way, although untrue. I have studied the Bible, read it from cover to cover, and thus know intimately the symbolism and metaphor through which you are speaking.

Let me simply say that I completely disagree with your assessment of the source of the problem. I'd rather not get into a theological debate here about the nature of sin, and the meaning of Genesis 3:17. Suffice it to say that I strongly disagree with your interpretation, but see no reason why it should be pursued in this conversation. And as to implying that your interpretation is God's meaning, well, if you persist in pressing that view this conversation will go nowhere. I strongly caution you from that sort of hubris.

Let me simply rephrase what I wrote earlier within a Christian context. Because until you understand what I have written above we will merely be speaking past one another.

Nature is not Eden. Eden is an ideal that does not exist for us on Earth. Nature is humanity working the Earth and our sin is part of our nature. And so work is part of our nature.

The two are part of the same process, so viewing the earth as disconnected, and opposed to work only makes life more difficult than it needs to be.

What I was talking about in the comment above is an evolving view of how to work and manage the Earth more efficiently. Simply accepting that the earth yields thorns and believing the situation untenable because of it is uncreative and self-defeating. To extend the metaphor, we all must work the earth to live, but you can work it in different ways. You can on one hand tend the earth poorly so that it only grows thorns, or you can tend it more intelligently and yield something that benefits you.

I prefer the later because I need to eat and I need to feed my family.
[this is good]
[this is good]

They do not need definition in relation to one another. That is the point.

Good thing you didn't say Humans are animals...

John
I think that's a fair way to reconcile two different views.

God has given us the planet for our needs. We should use it and its resources, but we should do so with our God-given intelligence.

My electricity bill never passes the $20 mark

I've found that the apartment gets a fair amount of natural light during the day.

Does anyone ever feel sick under fluorescent lights? At my last job the one over my desk burned out and I wouldn't let them fix it.
Big girls need love too.

Those articles got me hungry for calamari.

Does anyone ever feel sick under fluorescent lights? At my last job the one over my desk burned out and I wouldn't let them fix it.

Many people do; old-style fluorescent lights don't give off a spectrum of light similar to natural lighting; as a result, many people felt uneasy or ill when lit by them. More modern fluorescent lights [1] improve it somewhat, but nothing can beat opening the drapes and letting the Sun shine in.

John

[1] Often referred to as "natural light" or "full spectrum" lights
[this is good]

Scio - I can tell you that there's a concept called a "sick building", although some people think it's a new age hippie-dippie concept. But sick buildings are more likely to have florescent lights, anyway. Did you feel better without the lights? I know that before my first coffee, bright lights are downright nauseating. ;)

Interesting conversation, Henesua. I'll tell you one thing, the biggest favor a high school teacher ever did for me was to teach us: "Don't ever argue with a fundamentalist. You can't win. They'll just quote the Bible". Merci, teacher.

Ironically enough if global warming does cause unmitigated disaster, the Christians can just say it's plague, locusts and floods from the prophecy. Interestingly enough. All I can tell you is, no matter what religion we may or may not be, no higher being will ever fault you for respecting life on Earth.

Ironically enough if global warming does cause unmitigated disaster, the Christians can just say it's plague, locusts and floods from the prophecy.

We tend to have a better coping mechanism for disaster than other segments of the population. Helps us keep our heads on straight when Al Gore is crying into his organic corn flakes.

Jonathon Haight would agree with you. He says the right wing is better at maintaining a close and safe community. I happen to believe it's true.

(ps Gore's looking like he should have those for breakfast, and lay off the chili dogs.)

but nothing can beat opening the drapes and letting the Sun shine in.

Amen!

We had full spectrum lighting in the quilt store so that customers could see the actual colors of the fabrics. It really did make a difference. I think it had as much of an influence on the genial atmosphere of the shop as anything. Not just because it improved the customers' moods, but it improved ours as well. Of course, all those windows in the front room didn't hurt the situation any. I'll never use any other type of fluorescent lighting again.
John:
Good thing you didn't say Humans are animals...

The irony is that is what I was going to write initially, but I didn't want to have to go through all this explanation. Had to anyway.

Scio:
God has given us the planet for our needs. We should use it and its resources, but we should do so with our God-given intelligence.
Careful, that sounds surprisingly like Voltaire.

Careful, that sounds surprisingly like Voltaire.

He couldn't have been all bad.

"Don't ever argue with a fundamentalist. You can't win. They'll just quote the Bible". Merci, teacher.

And quoting the Bible is not favorably looked upon by you because?

I am a Christian and yes the Bible is God's word to us and I will use it and quote it and try to live by His words to us.

I find it so interesting you can discount someone's words or opinion's because they are based on the Bible - and even call them a fundamentalist. If that is what you name someone who is a Christian and lives by God's words, then feel free to call me a fundamentalist - I'll claim it with joy.

That kind of discount may quiet your conscious but have you considered how arrogant that is? The difference here is you want to WIN something here and I am engaging in conversation. WIN sounds like playing a game.

"People prefer to believe what they prefer to be true - That is until God does a work in someone's heart: removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh. Yeah, I did it again - I quoted scripture!

God has given us the planet for our needs. We should use it and its resources, but we should do so with our God-given intelligence.

Well said!

Hey! That is what I wrote. Don't I get the gold star?

Of course it is also what Voltaire wrote. Does he get a reprieve?
Gold star to you and Voltaire
[this is good]

Well, just to clarify, what my dear teacher meant was this: if I want to have an argument based on science, then I use scientific fact.

But if I debate such things with a fundamentalist, they will "refute" scientific fact using quotes from the Bible. The Bible is not a scientific text. But fundamentalists will use it as such. So a discussion of science with someone who uses the Bible as proof is a garganutan waste of time.

I certainly didn't mean that the Bible is useless. In fact, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, the Golden Rule is, unequivocally, the best ethical guidephrase ever put forth. I wish everyone would live by it.

However, I am saddened when people assume I'm a Christian. Speaking to me in terms of, "Yes, Maya, God created the Earth because....." assumes that I am a Christian and that I also believe that God created the Earth. That is why a discussion of science with a fundamentalist is, as my teacher said, a waste of time.

I hear you. I refute the statement that the Bible is not a scientific book.

And I never thought you were a Christian or even assumed as much.

What is the golden rule you are speaking of?

I hear you. I refute the statement that the Bible is not a scientific book.

Hey, it calls bats birds. How scientific can it be?


What is the golden rule you are speaking of?
I think she means Luke 6:31 "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Aka Mark 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.")

Of course, Jesus was far from the first to promulgate the idea, but it was nice that it made it into the Bible.

John

I am saddened when people assume I'm a Christian

Aren't you pagan? At least Christianity has a healthy dose of Greek rational thought thrown in with the Eastern mystic religion.

:P

Hey, it calls bats birds. How scientific can it be?

And Carl Linnaeus believed in the hydra and inherent racial differences in temperament and intelligence among men. This after he developed a scientific method of classification. Give the Bible a break!

And Carl Linnaeus believed in the hydra and inherent racial differences in temperament and intelligence among men.

But Linnaeus never claimed to be inerrant, whereas many claim that the Bible is. See the difference?

John
But Linnaeus never claimed to be inerrant, whereas many claim that the Bible is. See the difference?


This here is the problem - many just love attacking the Bible and the Christians and the Jews.

God claims that the Bible is inerrant, so does Jesus. So really you are trying to debate with God and Jesus! You of course don't know God which is evident in your fruits - but what is more interesting is how you try so hard to disprove God, His Word, Jesus, His Son, our Lord.

The real problem is you don't want any Lord over you - You want to be your own lord. How is that working for you?

Just because you have a hardened heart against Christ Jesus and try to discount Him and His Word by speaking words and thoughts of disbelief - does not make Jesus null or void, nor His word.

And please lets not do the 'politically correct - higher-power'

A higher power is my electric pole outside.



Ah ha, but where does the Bible claim to be completely without error in matters historical and scientific? It does not. Rather, it seeks to convey Truths which transcend history and science and go to the heart and soul of humanity.

Biblical literalists will run into problems. Conflicting historical records, obvious misunderstandings of the natural world (De Sun Do Move) and so on. Those who view the Bible as an inerrant moral authority have a much easier time reconciling science and spirit.

This here is the problem - many just love attacking the Bible and the Christians and the Jews.

I'm not attacking the Bible, merely pointing out that it isn't meant as a science text. And I haven't said anything against Christians in general, nor Jews.

God claims that the Bible is inerrant, so does Jesus. So really you are trying to debate with God and Jesus!

OK, call him/her/it into my lab and we'll check out the results. That's how science works - if I can't repeat it in my lab, then it isn't science. That's not to say it doesn't have any value, merely that it doesn't fit into this particular category of human endeavor. So if you want to call the Bible science, you have to let us test it. You can't have it both ways.

You of course don't know God which is evident in your fruits - but what is more interesting is how you try so hard to disprove God, His Word, Jesus, His Son, our Lord.

"Sir, the truth is, I talk to God all the time, and, no offense, but He never mentioned you. "

The real problem is you don't want any Lord over you - You want to be your own lord. How is that working for you?

Pretty well. But I do have a god, and we do a lot of talking. And laughing, and working to improve things for others. For the record, I do own several copies of the Bible (as well as the religious books of several other religions), and I pray every day.

John

Ah ha, but where does the Bible claim to be completely without error in matters historical and scientific?

I didn't say that it did; I said that many people say that the Bible is inerrant.

Biblical literalists will run into problems. Conflicting historical records, obvious misunderstandings of the natural world (De Sun Do Move) and so on. Those who view the Bible as an inerrant moral authority have a much easier time reconciling science and spirit.

Yep. But the problem is that we keep running into the other sort. (Heck, my father is a member of the Flat Earth Society and believes in the Pre-Adamite heresy.)

John


I didn't say that it did

Don't worry, I didn't misunderstand what you said. I was clarifying the point that the Bible contains inerrant truth, just not of the scientific or historical variety.

Wow. Fun dad. It seems the apple has fallen far from the tree.
"Sir, the truth is, I talk to God all the time, and, no offense, but He never mentioned you. "

Fair enough - I should have not said much in my last comment. I'm really sorry about that. I've got to quit the personal thing.

Bad thing about these - once words are posted, they're there - no removing them.

Bad thing about these - once words are posted, they're there - no removing them.

well, there is if you ask me. But I like conflict.
[this is good]

Ah. John expressed my statement well. Merci, John!

And Humbled Infidel, I realize we may be on "different sides of the fence", but I have great respect for people of faith, I prefer them as my next-door neighbors to most other people. So no disrespect at all intended. As for wanting to be my own lord, I'd say that's not true, really......I rather think of myself as a mortal being who is extraordinarily lucky to be of a species who can appreciate our Earth and to love it.

You have to give Scio-man credit for creating a well moderated forum - not like the Jerry-Springer style catfights I usually see between people of different faiths!! Good job, Scio.

And yes, I am a (fading) Pagan, mostly I attend my best friend's White Mountain Apache ceremonies, although I will never have that "religion" in my blood, so there you go. But it is a spiritual path that "goes well" with my beliefs and morals.

Thanks for the offer, but it's really too late. It's posted and read.

I have noticed you like conflict, you handle yourself well. I also notice anytime I bring religion into a conversation - it draws conversation. I find that interesting and actually enjoyable.

So I guess I could say. bring it on.
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Well that didn't work! This is one of my favorite songs.

How deep the Father's love

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